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The Healthy Life Therapist
Behind The Facade Of High-Functioning Alcoholism
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Outward success can be an elegant disguise for deep distress. We sit down with fellow clinicians-in-training: Ryan Ramos, Steffan Piper, Mady George and Stephen Crooms to unpack The Double Life of a High Functioning Alcoholic and explore how achievement, status, and social rituals can keep people sick while everything looks fine on paper. From acute care units to youth DBT groups, we share what we see in the room: spotless résumés, strong eye contact, and carefully curated stories that unravel when you ask the right questions—or simply offer a safe place to answer honestly.
Our conversation traces the invisible scaffolding that holds denial in place. Alcohol culture normalizes excess at work and at home; gender scripts reward stoicism and recruit caretakers; wealth and location buffer consequences long enough to blur the “bottom.” We dig into intergenerational patterns and the way shame breeds secrecy, then bring in a different lens: attunement. Real happiness tracks with connection and co-regulation, and intoxication blocks that subtle exchange. When alcohol becomes a proxy for closeness, marriages strain, parenting goes distant, and teams bond over drinks instead of trust.
On the clinical side, we lean into compassion over confrontation. Labels can shut doors, so we start with autonomy, curiosity, and DBT’s both-and stance: what you did makes sense and change is needed. We talk tone, safety, and the kind of genuine presence that lets hard truths land without shame. You’ll hear practical moves—brief screening, trauma-informed pacing, psychoeducation on withdrawal—and a humbling story of 47 years of sobriety that challenges assumptions about which substances are “harder” to quit. Along the way, we share how training reshapes relationships, as boundaries strengthen and party culture loses its pull.
If you’re navigating high-functioning addiction, supporting someone who is, or simply curious about how clinicians think through these challenges, this conversation offers a clear, compassionate map. If the episode resonates, follow the show, leave a review, and share it with a friend who might need a gentler way in.
Introductions And Practicum Backgrounds
SPEAKER_00All right, Healthy Life Listeners, this is Brian. It's it's almost my birthday next week, but anyways, I have amazing guests for today. Thank you so much for joining us here at the Healthy Life Therapist Podcast. We have Stefan, Maddie, and Steven. These are some of the most lovable, beautiful people I've met through PAU. And I'd like to start it out with Stefan giving an introduction, and then we'll go from there.
SPEAKER_03Hey everybody, I'm Stefan, and it's uh always an honor and a pleasure to be with some of my closest friends here at Palo Alto University and to be having a discussion about this book, which is The Double Life of a High Functioning Alcoholic. I currently am a MFT intern therapist working in acute care in Indio, California. I also work in a drug and alcohol treatment facility in Palm Springs, as well as private practice community mental health in Palm Desert, and stay pretty busy. And so I'm looking forward to hearing from everybody tonight.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Stefan. Manny.
SPEAKER_01Well, that was a lovely intro, Ryan. Thank you. You're so sweet and happy early birthday. But yeah, so I'm an intern therapist at PAU as well. I am in program for dual licensure. And my current practicum site is a drug and rehab facility. So I've been implicating what I've been learning in this course heavily to my practice with clients and doing group therapy as well there.
SPEAKER_00Thank you, Maddie. Welcome. And then we have Stephen.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, thanks, Brian. That was a great intro. I love being referred to as one of the most beautiful people at PAU. I hope you mean it only in terms of appearance and not at all in terms of my soul or personality or anything like that. Let's talk about what's really important here. My practicum site is it's West Contra Costa Behavioral Health. So it's basically the Richmond San Pablo Medicaid site. And I'm working with child and youth. So I've got five individual clients and I'm leading a DBT group and I'm learning a lot and I'm really, really enjoying it, probably more than anything I've ever done before. So I was worried that it would make me depressed, but it's been quite the opposite. So yeah, that's me.
SPEAKER_00I love that. Thank you so much.
First Reactions To The Book’s Title
SPEAKER_00So we have, you know, an amazing panel here for today, and we're going to be discussing, like Stefan said, the book that we read, The Double Life of a High Functioning Alcoholic by Howard Kane. I'd like to start out with a question and feel free for whoever wants to jump in first. What first stood out to you about the title?
SPEAKER_02Well, I think to me, it mainly shows that addiction is not necessarily immediately obvious, and it's not what society often thinks it is that it involves being a, you know, haggard or disheveled homeless person or something like that. I think there's a fair amount of societal awareness that you can have alcoholics in the C-suite, you know, but or people who present very well. But nevertheless, I think that's what he's getting at in the title.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I would say that that's pretty accurate. And we were talking earlier today about how sometimes we wonder about parenting in terms of active addiction and alcoholism. And, you know, what parenting looks like in active addiction and alcoholism. And, you know, we often have these maybe skewed perspectives in terms of that. And, you know, this book by Howard Cain, you know, he's talking about a very kind of high SES, well-heeled lifestyle, where he was coping for a very long time within his addictions, which on some level might feel cliche because we've all heard the story of like the wolf, you know, like the Wall Street banker that's a, you know, that's martini swilling kind of high-energy person. But, you know, then it's like, what does it really look like when it falls apart? And then that kind of coincides with that parenting part. You know, parenting during addiction looks good until it falls apart because there's always a facade. There's always a facade. And I think that's kind of to me how how this material opened up.
SPEAKER_01No, I I I was gonna say I love that you used that phrase, like fall apart, because I think that when I read the book title, it reminded me that automatically we're gonna be like exploring themes of secrecy and identity fragmentation and as well as like emotional disconnection, which is so prominent
Facades, Parenting, And Falling Apart
SPEAKER_01in addiction. So those were my thoughts on the title.
SPEAKER_00That's beautiful, Maddie. I like those words that you use there. And, you know, when we talk about substances in particular, in this book, it was alcohol. And I found that really surprising that like, you know, he does a great job explaining like his first experiences of alcohol and like how you know the college life and and how that kind of flowed into like becoming a parent. And I don't know about this, but I thought it was pretty fascinating that his wife was a doctor. And and you don't get that all the time with like a um a significant other. And I just found her just so therapeutic every time that the wife would speak about like just being present and listening. And I just thought, wow, she's not just a doctor, she's becoming like the therapist for him that he really needs. And it wasn't until like midway was like, whoa, like maybe he's discovering that he needs to see a therapist and get help with this addiction.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, let me say one thing right here because as counselors, like, you know, sometimes we see some very obvious things. And with alcoholics, historically, and there's this big tendency that they're gonna rope somebody in to be a scaffold for them. That's why we have things like like Al Anonon and like Codependence Anonymous. As someone who has been through Codependence Anonymous from my early years, you know, that's what stood out to me with that character with the wife, Brian. And that's well said, you know, alcohol, it was like for him, it was an emotional firewall and it protected him from his self-awareness. And it was just about, you know, watching this, this, this, the, this functioning continuing to flourish in kind of weird ways and very disruptive, you know. And as counselors, I think that's something we need to be mindful when clients present as high achieving, but also emotionally detached.
SPEAKER_00That's that's a fantastic reflection there. And, you know, as we talk about the concealment strategies, right? The blackouts, the secrecy, the rationalizing uh success. How would you guys think about the contrast between public image and how they describe and internal deterioration?
Secrecy, Identity, And The “Therapist” Spouse
SPEAKER_02Well, he clearly seemed to have it all, I think is the main thing. You know, which I think is a lot of people in positions like that.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, it was a high power power, I would say like authoritative, like person that can like really command attention in the room. On a personal note, has anyone met anyone like that? Because for me, I live in Vegas and I see this all the time. I see this all the time with the patients I see and the people I'm around. And it's a culture out here in Las Vegas. I think it really depends also like where you live. In Vegas, we have nonstop gambling and alcohol 24-7, the moment you arrive in the airport. And I think it's just so fascinating that like the culture of like the PTs and the pubs, and right after work, let's go meet up for a drink, happy hour, and then let's have dinner with drinks, and then let's go to the bar down the street for drinks after dinner, and it becomes a cycle. So that's what I've noticed here in Las Vegas. I don't know where you guys are coming from if you've seen that kind of similarities.
SPEAKER_02Well, I mean, this would be this is uh this is the millionth time someone has commented on this, but obviously it's an accident of history that alcohol is like the one drug that is considered completely socially acceptable. And like at work, you can be like, oh yeah, we went for drinks yesterday, and you'd never be like, you know, we took some meth yesterday, but you know, like they're both bad for you. Sorry, I'll try to be more serious.
SPEAKER_01I think no, I think that culturally as well, like masculinity has like reinforced silence, and men are expected to handle their stress in a different way than women are.
SPEAKER_00Woman woman, excuse me. I am so sorry, but a woman. I think that that men's health has to really be like to the forefront when you mention that.
SPEAKER_02Maddie, in all seriousness, do you have any thoughts on well like how that works as a woman as opposed to how what expectations would be as a woman as opposed to as a man?
SPEAKER_01I think I just have a different perspective on it. And I would and I'm more curious as to not to like reflect it back on you, but I'm I'm more curious as to what that's like as a man because it is, I feel like as a woman, it's more accepted to be able to have strong emotions. So I'm curious as to what that's like as a man, you like your experience.
SPEAKER_02I mean, I live in Berkeley, so I'm like so far out of like traditional masculinity
Public Image Versus Inner Deterioration
SPEAKER_02zone. My shirt is purple, you know what I mean? So I feel like I've but I will say when I was like in my 20s, when I was like 25 to 28, I definitely had to go through a lot of grappling in my meditation with the idea that emotions were girly. You know what I mean? Just that any emotion besides anger was being overly feminine and that made me weak. Just the this the stuff that I think a lot of guys go through. At this point, I think I've largely left that behind. But I think a lot of men feel like they can't ask for help, that they can't be sad, that they can't be afraid. And that and you know, you can see in this book, he goes through all that. He's clearly terrified a lot, he's very broken. And for a lot of men, it's gonna be hard to ask for help. I think on the left we think of that pretty often, but I I do think it's true.
SPEAKER_03I want to say, you know, speaking to like the feminine aspect of this or like, you know, the non-male gendered aspect of it, because like, you know, I can only speak from my place, but from what I from what I observe a lot of the times, when men go into recovery, they seem to go into this very kind of deeply self-reflective mode. It becomes very personal to them, and it becomes almost like an inward rebuilding. And when I was going through recovery in the early or the mid-1990s, I was living in Brentwood, California, during the OJ trial, and it was probably the worst place in the world to get clean and sober.
SPEAKER_04Wow.
SPEAKER_03Because every single celebrity and person working for a news organization was showing up to an AA meeting or a CODA meeting. And, you know, you can't name people that were in your AA meeting, but some people have talked about them going to AA meetings, and I'll just tell you, it was kind of weird being in a in an AA meeting sitting next to Dr. Hannibal Lecter, right? And so, you know, but from the perspective of how I watched like women go through recovery, there's like there's like a commitment that all people as men and women capsule encapsulate onto. And then there's like this exterior rebuilding. It's like, I'm gonna start doing this,
Alcohol Culture: Vegas, Normalization, And Gender
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna start doing that, I'm gonna, you know, my wardrobe might change, my outward effect might change, I'm gonna exercise a lot more. I'm going to really focus on my life in every aspect. And what I've watched with men is in recovery, when they're doing this, they let themselves go. I've watched people that were hardcore athletes and bodybuilders in recovery let themselves go. I know that that's a contrast that I'm providing, and it's not true across stall boards, but it's probably something to think about. And it's like to you know, Maddie's point and what Stephen was talking about, about how does that look differently amongst the sexes? Because we we probably do approach it differently. You know, not to get off topic from the book, but you know, I think that's a point worth considering that you know, that we visit when we think about it, because you know, the the author and him and his wife, right? The author and his wife had that dynamic, and you have to wonder about it.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for sharing that, Stefan. And I'm sure that like with your experience, hearts, yes. I'm sure with your experience that's that's gonna make you an amazing therapist, just being so empathetic and and with what you kind of went through in the mid-90s there. And yeah, I like to kind of shift gears now and talk about more the environmental, cultural, and family origins. And I like to pose this question what cultural factors might make it harder for high-functioning individuals to seek help? What cultural factors might make it harder for high-functioning individuals to seek help? Yeah.
SPEAKER_02You know, I've spent some time in Malibu and I've spent some time recently in Marin County, and I have a lot of bad things to say about both of them. But specifically, it it's all about surface surface level appearance. It's about the facade. You know, it's not they're not places of being genuine. You know, it's about what your house looks like, making it all look good, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And I think that's that's gonna be a barrier. That's that's the main thing.
SPEAKER_00And you know, Malibu. I I I used to live in Valencia and drive out to Malibu all the time, so I still haven't been to an Erwan yet, but definitely want to hit it up.
SPEAKER_01You don't want a $12 smoothie?
SPEAKER_00I I definitely want to try it. I think as as long as it's it's vegan, I think I'll I'll enjoy it and definitely do it. Yeah. With connection to trauma informed lens, what do you think about emotional neglect, shame, and generational patterns? What did you guys see in the memoir with that?
SPEAKER_03I was fond because I'm talking a lot. I always do. I did like the last question. You're fine. Thank you. Yeah, I you know, I was gonna say something about a lot of the times when we're talking about facade and we're talking about what does it look like different in the difference culturally,
Intergenerational Patterns And Attunement
SPEAKER_03right? And then you ask yourself, what does it look like at the different SES levels? And the real question I think any drug and alcohol counselor would ask is where is this person's bottom? When do they hit bottom? And is this going to be the first bottom or the third bottom or the twelfth bottom? And how real is that bottom going to be? Because when you're scaffolded into this life, like you're in Malibu, or maybe you're up in Marin, like Steven, like you're talking about, or you're in Brentwood living next to, you know, God knows whomever, what does your bottom really look like? You know, and then into Ryan, like you're talking about intergenerational. If you never hit bottom, but you're you're a functional alcoholic that's that is destructive, you're clearly gonna spill that over to your children and your loved ones and your family and your brothers and sisters and your mom and dad.
SPEAKER_01I think intergenerational is such an important aspect to touch on, Ryan, because truly it's if you're if as a child, that is the environment that you're subjected to and and witnessed, it completely shapes your reality and how you walk through life.
SPEAKER_02I think I think a couple of things about all this. Yeah, I think for whatever reason, the human brain just we just imitate our parents. That's just what we do. I don't know why that we're so hardwired that way, but we really are. So if your parents were using, it's going to be, you know, it's very likely. It's not guaranteed, nothing is nothing is guaranteed in human nature, but I also think it's very likely. I'll also say that the more I go through life, the more I think happiness just comes from attunement. Like feeling like other people are attuning to you and feeling like you can attune to other people. And I, you know, as a Buddhist, I'm thinking maybe that's mainly what we mean by interconnection. Like interconnectedness is basically being attuned to other living beings, particularly humans. And I think if you're if you're intoxicated, you pretty much can't attune. I I think. Although I don't know. I mentioned to pose that to the group. I'm just having that thought right now. Do you guys think that's right or not? Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. What do you think?
SPEAKER_03I'm gonna a thousand percent agree with you. Think about anybody doing like polyvagal therapy being lit three sheets to the wind. How's that gonna go?
SPEAKER_04Right.
SPEAKER_01I think there's just a deeper, a deeper level of connection that you can't have when you're under mind-altering substances. And I think that like us three, I mean, and honestly, everybody in the program we're able to relate to that like deep sense of like wanting to connect and understand with each other that maybe not everybody has or understands. I think that everybody has it.
SPEAKER_02I think everybody wants I think deep down everybody wants to, but that doesn't mean that doesn't mean you some people are thinking about it consciously. Agreed. Like us.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_00I was laughing earlier, Steven, because like you mentioned how like we kind of act like our parents. I'm like, I'm never gonna act like that. And like my partner calls me out all the time, like, you're acting like your mom, or you're acting like your dad. I'm like, no, I'm not. But I think I think there's some truth to that. And and thanks for sharing to the team that you know you're Buddhists, and I think that's what that's an important piece there. Though I grew up Catholic, I'm not practicing Catholic, but the thing is, I have like three Buddha paintings here, and I'm I'm a big person about mindfulness. And I read like Tina Turner's book. I think it's just really important to highlight that you know, there could be like religious aspects when
Culture, Class, And Hitting “Bottom”
SPEAKER_00it comes to like addiction and understanding people's culture, right? Because there could be certain cultures where I think Stefan, you mentioned, especially in the Irish like pub culture, is that that's a thing, right?
SPEAKER_03Of course it is. You know, you're always down at your local with your own family, and you're probably gonna be sit, you know, like sitting there in the bench off to the side, whether you're drinking or not. And you might be getting just dinner, and the kids are there, and somebody starts singing, and you're singing too, and the next thing you know, and it's like in America, we have this weird thing where there has to be intoxication with it. And, you know, I I knew right away that I was never gonna live in New York when I went to go visit some family there. And I was driving in the taxi, and the guy said, it was like 2 a.m. And I'm like, I need to get something to eat because I'm starving, and I just flew in. And he was like, Oh, go get a beer or something. And I'm like, What? This is what people's meal is is a beer? Like, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm Irish, but you know, I'm telling you, like, you know, you're not gonna see me at 2 a.m. going out for a meal and getting a drink as an excuse. But you know, it's those are the social norms of place and the social norms of of like different cultures. And you know, we but as counselors, you know, we try to be, you know, thoughtful of ourselves and our clientele, and we're thoughtful of where people are coming from, you know, from a place of the religion that they practice. And also, you know, again, because we're talking about this, is the honesty of what they're presenting to us and how scaffolded they are with their lifestyle and even the protections they have around them with family and culture. Because that too can often get in the way of recovery.
SPEAKER_02You mean like having a system of enablers basically?
SPEAKER_03Thank you.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I'd like to shift now to a different subject. The impact of understanding of addiction and clinical practice. And I'm currently not in practicum, so I'm relying on you three here. But from from your sense and your experience so far in practicum practicum, how would you say, as counselors, you would reflect on compassion over confrontation? Client client may not self-identify as addicted. How do you kind of roll with those thoughts?
SPEAKER_02I'm still figuring it out. I'll tell you that. I don't know. But the other two are more directly involved in addiction counseling. So I'm interested to hear what they have to say. Obviously, they're a lot of expertise on the subject.
Compassion Over Confrontation In Practice
SPEAKER_03So go ahead, Maddie. What do you got? Kid up.
SPEAKER_01Oh no, you can go first.
SPEAKER_03Let me brew.
SPEAKER_01Let me brew.
SPEAKER_03Okay, let you brew. I'm I'm just gonna say it in brief. I'm really brief. Steven, you're right on the on the like small part of the nail of the head there, you know, like the head of the nail. You're on the small part of the head of the nail because it's true, because we don't know from person to person. And people are so good at presenting, aren't they? People are so good at at convincing us who they are and what they're doing. And you know, I have a, you know, I've I've seen clients who are like, I have a perfect life. And then I'm like, okay, let's do this thing called the ACES. And they're like, what's that? I'm like, let's let's let's do the aces survey and see how you feel after you do that. And then they score a 10 on the thing or something, and it's like, oh fuck.
SPEAKER_00So you're utilizing assessments.
SPEAKER_03It it helps when you have folks that present, which is I think one of the big things that we've focused on in this conversation is how a person presents versus how they are.
SPEAKER_02Well, one thing I have been getting into, I haven't been applying it to addiction in my practicum, but I've been getting into DBT in my practicum. Are you three familiar or have you guys studied that at all? Yeah. Yeah. And just the idea of holding two things in your mind at once that are seemingly contradictory, I feel like is highly relevant here in terms of like the need to be compassionate towards what is currently happening, being like, okay, yeah, it's understandable that you've been using, it's understandable that, you know, this is about your attachments and stuff like that. At the same time, like change needs to happen. Like both of these things can be true at the same time. That's the way I would look at it.
SPEAKER_01I one of my first clients at the center, they they initially did not think they had a problem. Um, and I think that one of the first things I just tried to do was affirm their autonomy and show that I'm not there to put labels on them. And they obviously know their life better than anybody else. And I found that like when people feel they're in control, they're more willing to be open and express themselves honestly and just creating that rapport and being somebody that they're willing to open up to and dive deeper with makes all the difference. So just like being able to create that safe space is just the most important.
SPEAKER_02I agree. I think I think fundamental positive energy and fundamental goodwill goes much further than almost any philosophy. Like uh Yeah, I I had a client. This is again not to do with addiction, but a client, I just sort of was like trying to trying to generate as many openness and kindness. And she was very, very defensive the first two times. And then the third time her vibe was like, All right, I accept that you're not here to judge me. I don't think it had anything to do with me practicing any particular philosophy or anything like that. I think just the energy, my energy was good. So she bought it.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, I would like to.
SPEAKER_01Energy is so important.
SPEAKER_03It is, yeah, yeah. So I'd like to add that, you know, a lot of the times when people come into addiction recovery and even into counseling, they, you know, they are apprehensive. And, you know, having unconditional positive regard is everything, especially being that they might have that that they might have preconceived notions about what they're about to do. Like, oh, he's gonna talk about my past, or oh, she's gonna bring up my mom and dad, or oh, she's gonna judge me, or oh, he's gonna say this and make me, you know, do it. So do like an ACE's summary. And it's like you never know what's gonna happen. But unconditional positive regard is probably gonna keep that person coming back.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, and go ahead, go ahead,
Stigma, Energy, And Building Safety
SPEAKER_02Maddie.
SPEAKER_01No, just something that popped into my mind was there's such a stigma around it, and I think that's what a lot of people are so hesitant of.
unknownThat's it.
SPEAKER_02I I I was gonna say, I think the whole thing with the personal energy is like, I think if if your personal energy is good, you could say to someone, it sounds like your substance use has really been a problem, and they might receive it well if your personal energy is really legitimately kind and non-judgmental. Whereas if your personal energy is judgmental and just doesn't come off as genuine, you could say that sounds really hard, and they're not gonna buy it. You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00So I definitely see the genuineness in all of you. And I just wanted to share something that happened today. Um, even though I'm not in practicum, you know, I still see patients at the dental office, and I saw this one patient that I've known for years, and she's very open about her recovery. I didn't realize that she's been in she's currently like 47 years sober. And she sponsors like 12 people right now. And I thought from a cultural perspective, it was beautiful because she's white, she is lonely, but she is very well off. She also is very open to me about how not only was she addicted to alcohol, but was used meth before alcohol. And something that was surprising was that she said that the meth was easy to get rid of. It was the alcohol that was you have one drink and it goes to three, four, five, six. And I thought that was just such an eye-opening statement she said, because sometimes you you think there's one substance that's worse quote unquote than the other. And for for for me today, that was a
A 47-Year Sobriety Story And Substance Myths
SPEAKER_00huge takeaway because you can't just like have your assumptions of like what's considered worse than another, because for one person that can be like the double for them, if that makes sense.
SPEAKER_02Almost literally.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_02I'm serious.
SPEAKER_00And you know, we're we're coming to about you know half hour of this beautiful conversation here. And I just want to like close off by saying, you know, first of all, so much gratitude for having this robust conversation. I'm gonna pose a question and I'd like for each of you to just kind of reflect on that question and see what comes up. How did this reading this book influence your understanding of addiction and your potential work with clients?
SPEAKER_02I'll go I I would reiterate what I said a minute ago about feeling like inebriation or intoxication prevents you from legitimately attuning to others. Uh it it prevents you from achieving life's genuine happiness. Because I think when he was in basically the first half of the book, when he was in his substance use and he was in his addiction, you know, he couldn't really connect with his wife. Above all, he couldn't connect with his children and, or his child, I should say, his son, and he couldn't really connect with his coworkers. He could go out and like get hammered with the guys, but he could he wasn't really genuinely, I think, attuned is the best way I would put it. He he he was not genuinely sharing emotions, sharing the subtle facial expressions that we were just describing happens in therapy, and that, you know, I think it's where genuine happiness comes from. And instead of connecting to other humans, he was connecting to the substance. You know what I mean? Because you can't attune to other people, you effectively attune to the substance, if you will. And that becomes your feeling of attunement. And then I think when he healed, he healed in relationship. You know, he healed in relationship with his son, he healed his relationship with his wife. And I actually thought it was most interesting when he was attuning to his coworkers. His coworkers were like, oh, I've actually been having a problem too. And then because he wasn't connecting with the substance, he was legitimately connecting with other human beings who he didn't even realize he could do so before. So I think that that was my main takeaway.
SPEAKER_01That was very well said. I completely agree. I think at least for me, what impacted me the most was just reading about like how deeply the author like carried his shame and secrecy. I think it's one thing to, I mean, I grew up around that, but being able to read it from a different perspective of somebody who's like not a child was very eye-opening for me.
SPEAKER_03Yeah, no, I appreciate both of those statements because they're very powerful in the way we think about this material and the way we wrap them up.
Personal Takeaways And Clinical Reflections
SPEAKER_03And you know, for me, I think the over the overarching theme for me was the was this idea of like presentation and you know, success is, you know, a shadow at times, but it's something that, you know, and it's this control that we have, that we think we have when we're wrapped up in our addiction, that's a costume. And, you know, you know, maybe the hangover is the only thing that that creates the cracks on the surface that starts to break through, that where now people are gonna see me. Then as a counselor, you know, I have to have empathy for folks that show up and look completely marbled and perfect and be like, I have a drinking problem. And then, you know, not to break into, oh, well, you know, you seem like you're doing okay, can you know, so can you tell me about it and not be judgmental and not be assumptive in my judgment that they're doing okay, because oftentimes if someone showed up in the office and they say, you know, I've been to 12-step meetings and they're not working, and I'm trying to quit drinking and I can't, and I'm hiding it. You know, addiction is addiction, you know, and it's it's it's devastating in that person's life, and they're trying to uh find control uh with something that they've been controlling in a whole different way. And so it's this really kind of strange dance in my mind of uh you know, managing control and managing self and being and just being honest. That's that's my big takeaway. And I've I appreciated his story and that he found recovery from such a from such uh you know individualistic place.
SPEAKER_00They're beautiful reflections. I have to say, for myself after reading the book, it made me think about not just the potential clients, but the people personally around me, those that in my eyes maybe are addicted or using substance to drown out certain things. And I don't know if you guys are feeling this, but because we're becoming mental health professionals, the people around you start sitting up a little straighter when you're around them. They they're they may be getting a little nervous or they're a little bit hesitant about what are you thinking about me? But I think for myself, it comes from a good heart when, oh my gosh, I recognize that symptom of his shakes, or like when
How Training Shifts Friendships And Boundaries
SPEAKER_00I have a friend that's breaking out in hives because she just started, she stopped drinking like a month ago, and she thinks everything's fine and dandy when you've been drinking for years, and all of a sudden you had an allergic reaction from going to that plant-based restaurant. Yeah. And I go, have you thought about maybe these could be possible withdrawal symptoms? And it maybe open up my eyes about the long-term effects of substance abuse and how, you know, when we see our clients, we got to be sensitive about not just the physiological aspect of what they're going through, but also their their journey mentally. And hopefully we're gonna be there, you know, being present with them in that therapy room.
SPEAKER_03And just being, you know, I'm looking here at the feelings wheel sticker that I have here, just being really attuned to their to their feelings and their but I would just curious to hear from so I would be like curious to hear from the both of you, or you know, now that you bring that up, Ryan, yeah, how other people react to you now, being counselors and counselors and training, and has that really impacted your personal life and have people treated you differently now? I would really like to hear about that.
SPEAKER_02You mean me and Maddie?
SPEAKER_03Of course. Maddie, go ahead. I see you smiling.
SPEAKER_01That's I can't think about I'm giggling just because I feel like my experience is a little niche because I am young and there's a very like heavy emphasis on the drinking culture, especially like around the college age, and I'm 24. So yeah, like the majority of my friends. I don't want to say the majority of my friends, but it just looks differently for some other of my friends' pathways than my pathway in life. So I think I I have noticed a difference. And I've also had to create some separation from people who I don't want to surround myself with because I'm trying I'm trying to build my life. So it has been, it has been a very interesting transition and it's been a transition full of growth. And I mean, honestly, since I started this program, I've had immense life changes. So, but it's been all for the better. And I'm so thankful for everything that I've gone through. And again, it's just it's giving me more life experience in the best possible way. And I just hope that I could take what I've learned and truly help other people in their walk of life.
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I don't think it's affected me that much, actually. I think the counseling itself is affecting me, but I don't think it's affecting me, my like social interactions, mainly because everyone else I know is already a counselor. So everyone is quite used to like my wife is, and like my oldest friend's wife is, who's also my wife's best friend. So, like, you know, I don't know. We're all surrounded by counselors anyway. So I'm just kind of like one more in the mix.
SPEAKER_03That was really wonderful to both of you. I appreciated that, Maddie. That was it's really interesting to hear the perspective from your, you know, from your age bracket, because you know, I'm I'm older myself, and it's you know, we can only guess what's going on in the world sometimes. We can only guess what young people are going through. And we try to empathize and be there, and you know, it's like not everybody's a teenager too when we're talking about you know the younger set. You know, you're full-fledged adults, but there's still a difference and there's generational breaks, there's a there's the way we approach it is different, and so I just appreciated that. And of course, Stephen, I I I appreciate the fact that you're so well scaffolded.
SPEAKER_01You just got it all together over there, Stefan.
SPEAKER_02I I think the question in in the age grab is do you understand what the hell six seven means? If you know, you're young. If you if you don't, you're old. Uh yeah. Right there, I got you. Yeah, yeah. Maddie, do you get it?
SPEAKER_01No, I don't.
SPEAKER_02You don't get it? Okay. Maybe you're old at heart.
SPEAKER_01I have an old soul, don't worry.
SPEAKER_02You're an old soul. That's what I was going for. Yeah, in a good way. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01You can't tell. Come on.
SPEAKER_00Well,
Gratitude And Closing Thoughts
SPEAKER_00I love this. I love this conversation. But you know, we're hitting, we're hitting at 41 minutes. And I mean, this was again such a robust and beautiful conversation. I hope I get to see you three in other courses. I know that you guys are much accelerated than me. And, you know, I'm saying this right now with true to my heart. Like, I see you guys as amazing colleagues. And please let's reach out still, even when we're in practice, because um, we're gonna look back and say, hey, do you remember that conversation in addictions class? You know, we just nailed it with that uh memoir book, and you know, we spilled our hearts and really learned a lot. And so I'm just kind of curious to see like how much more we can grow because I just feel like it's just such a blessing, and I feel so much gratitude and happiness just being around the creator.
SPEAKER_02That was good.
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